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Forum:2019-04-19 (Friday)
Discussion for comic for . Veni, vidi, wiki (I came, I saw, I edited). ---- We have seen something like this before. I think we are about to see someone go pop. Ucalibur (talk) 05:28, April 19, 2019 (UTC) : Maybe, maybe not. I mean, Albia and the other God-Queens survived it somehow. It could be that it was Agatha specifically drinking the Dyne water that caused her to almost explode. And wow, what a non-surprise, he's not gonna share. --Geoduck42 (talk) 05:31, April 19, 2019 (UTC) :: Albia wasn't surprised when Agatha mentioned almost exploding. ➤ ::It's nice to know that seeing into the infinite isn't biologically restricted to women. ➤ :::We did see evidence of this when they mentioned old Igneous doing this, . But yeah, only the Queens have been confirmed to have done the whole second breakthrough thing. Quantheory (talk) 09:20, April 19, 2019 (UTC) ::Presumably if Snacky doesn't ''explode, someone is going to have to smack him down. Candidates: Albia (is she following these events?), Red, Purple, and (somehow, maybe?) Agatha. Or perhaps Tarvek got far enough in his conversation with Red to be able to manage it. I like how most of the extras have their hair sticking out as in those static electricity demos at science museums. Nice touch. Bkharvey (talk) 06:29, April 19, 2019 (UTC) ::: Don't forget Dr Dim, who just gained something. Argadi (talk) 09:11, April 19, 2019 (UTC) :::: Good point. I ''did forget. Bkharvey (talk) 22:02, April 20, 2019 (UTC) ::: Another possibility is no resolution now. He vanishes and doesn't appear until a comic in 2025. (Two weeks from now, Agatha time.) Argadi (talk) 10:01, April 19, 2019 (UTC) :::: Aw, you're no fun. Bkharvey (talk) 22:02, April 20, 2019 (UTC) :: Ooh! Ooh! We never learned why Purple needed the help of Tarvek and/or Higgs. But we do know that it isn't about Higgs's Jäger powers, since Purple was surprised about his lifespan. So perhaps Purple knew Tarvek was going to be taken in by Red, and needs Super-Tarvek to zap Snacky! If so, it'll turn out that doing so extinguishes his powers, because he didn't get to stay with Red long enough to be enhanced permanently. Bkharvey (talk) 06:35, April 19, 2019 (UTC) :: P.S. It's clear from panel 3 that the Grey Hoodies did expect Snacky to keep his word. They're supposed to be Sparks, right? At least some of them should have figured it out (and started running) after he rose up in the air. (Let's not forget that it was touch-and-go whether Agatha would remember to cure the boys after her own elevation. Power corrupts.) Oh, and it's interesting that Snacky seems to have acquired a halo, so I guess that's somehow inherent in godhood, not just an affectation of Albia. Bkharvey (talk) 06:41, April 19, 2019 (UTC) ::: I just went and checked and I see no sign of a halo on Tarvek on Monday's page (unless you count the all-around dark glow). And from his face he has more sensible response to seeing into the infinite than Snacky and Agatha. Argadi (talk) 09:11, April 19, 2019 (UTC) :::: No reason Tarvek has to be rational for this mission. Maybe Purple is about to pick him up and throw him at Snacky. Maybe both their auras will then collapse. Bkharvey (talk) 22:02, April 20, 2019 (UTC) :::Well, we know that at least of the Greys have been keeping their distance from this whole experiment right from the start, so I'm guessing that the people who just got fried are really just the most naive and idealistic members. Also, I agree that it has been a bit ambiguous up until whether the various "Queen" powers have been inherent to everyone who experiences a second breakthrough, or due to additional experiments performed by the various God-Queens. I guess that now we have some confirmation that certain things (the halo, the pyrotechnics, the ability to shapeshift oneself and one's clothing, and ) show up as soon as one breaks through. (I suppose that Agatha also did some of this stuff when drinking the Dyne water, but at the time it was ambiguous whether it was really "her" doing it as opposed to all the machines surrounding her.) Quantheory (talk) 09:20, April 19, 2019 (UTC) For comparison, I've been thinking about the phenomena of "breaking through" and Spark-performance-enhancing effects in general, trying to think about what Snacky and Dr. Vapnoople will do next. (And possibly Tarvek, if he has gained any sparky power from Purple's anchoring and Red's mouthing, rather than just an appreciation for the grandness of the universe and a coating of saliva.) What I can remember is: # We are told that breaking through is almost always for the Spark involved, and that the devices constructed during a break through are typically very destructive. # The only breakthroughs observed in the comics so far (I believe) are those of Agatha (constructing the Search Engine) and Colette (creating and using whatever software she uses to take over Paris). The former was not especially traumatic because it was a case of "easing through" (due to Agatha's breakthrough being arrested by her locket), but the latter did involve a fair amount of pyrotechnics and her destroying the bodies of Drusus Beausoleil. # On the other hand, we have Zoing, . We don't know much about how that affected Gil (who was 8 at the time), or if he planned to make the construct especially dangerous. # The only second breakthrough (before Snacky's) that we know anything about is Albia's, and all we really know about that is that it happened a long time ago, due to knowledge granted by other God-Queens, and that her second breakthrough device is implied to have been the Queen's Henge. That doesn't appear especially destructive, and (in combination with the Queen's Memory describing her early experiences as "fun") may imply that second breakthroughs are not especially traumatic or violent. Though it's also possible that Albia leveled a village to build the Henge, or something like that. # Setting aside breakthroughs, we also have "seeing into the infinite", which seems to be something like a temporary, incomplete second breakthrough. The only person we've definitely seen do this is Agatha. She doesn't particularly seem especially upset or violent due to this (though she has a sense of grandiosity and dramatic flair). After redistributing much of her energy to Gil and Tarvek, she does get in a fight with them, but it's not a particularly vicious one. Her not-quite-a-breakthrough device , Queenie, who is superficially a peacemaking device, but also seems to use a form of mind control over other dingbots that resembles the Other's control. # Albia does also note that one possible side-effect of seeing into the infinite . # Moving farther afield, Colette's breakthrough looks a lot like seeing into the infinite as well. She has the . She also has been because she is trying to reduce the load that her father has to carry (and by the end she has to carry whatever she wields on her own). #: Mad theory 1: Maybe Colette's spark is at least partially artificial. While she is the mechanically-gifted daughter of a well-known spark (and Tarvek acts convinced that she would break through), she seems , perhaps because her breakthrough is fairly late in her life. I'm not sure I like this theory really, since I just don't like the idea that Agatha is one of the only "naturally" sparky women in the comic, but it would make sense if Simon was grooming Colette in the hope that a borderline or weak Spark could become a strong one with the help of his city. #: Mad theory 2: Since Castle Heterodyne has the ability to resist the time bubble and a than a human, it may in fact be an artifically-created "extradimensional" (or at least higher-dimensional) intelligence. Since Simon Voltaire apparently based his Parisian technology on the Castle, the Master's abilities (and those of her predecessor), including telekinesis, energy manipulation, and long life, may be due to her using the higher-dimensional mind that runs Paris in the same way as Snacky used Red, except that it isn't quite enough for a true, permanent second breakthrough. # Lord Bunstable, apparently using his false Jägerbrau (which theoretically should contain some kind of substitute version of the Dyne water that let Agatha see into the infinite), and possibly his head implants, manages to temporarily recover his Spark routinely, despite his human form suffering from some kind of dementia (though even as the more human Dr. Haggard, he lusts for the "drink" that will set his Jäger form free). While technically speaking this is not a breakthrough or "seeing into the infinite", it is nonetheless true that Bunstable talks quite a bit about his , which is similar to what those who survive drinking the Dyne's water report. He also spontaneously combusts, which is similar to how Igneous Heterodyne died after drinking the Dyne water. (Given the timing, it's more likely that he was poisoned, but it's still possible that he just overdosed on his own potion and burst into flames.) In any case, he still doesn't act too crazy. # Snacky is using a device related to the Summoning Engine for this experiment, so it's possible that other such engines could cause some kind of breakthrough. But as far as I can tell, there's no breakthrough-like behavior on the part of Agatha or clank-Anevka after their summonings, and Zola doesn't seem especially Sparky either. (Arrogant? Yes. Manic? Yes, especially when experiencing a stimulant overdose. Sparky when it comes to constructing devices? Not really.) I still think that Lucrezia's "copies" lose their spark if they are put into non-spark bodies, so having a copy of Lucrezia "uploaded" into you is not going to give you the spark (or enhance your own, except in the sense that Agatha can improve her devices by subconsciously accessing Lucrezia's memories). # The second breakthrough is clearly not an unapproachable pinnacle of sparky evolution. For one, many God-Queens have died since the original collapse, and it's at least implied that they can be killed by ordinary sparks. For another, none of those Queens understand the mirror network that predates them. ( , but while she may be the one responsible for , she could not control it in a more specific sense, .) # But most importantly, Lucrezia does not appear to have ever shown clear signs of a second breakthrough (she appears to have aged, and there are no clear depictions so far of her having any kind of halo or aura, or shapeshifting, or any other sort of odd powers outside of becoming a sort of cyborg), but she was able to slaughter the God-Queens with little-to-no effort. This implies that there is more than one way to acquire "godlike" knowledge, and that the second breakthrough is just one of the more popular paths. What's the point of all of this? Basically, I've just been looking at the whole comic to come to two (honestly not surprising or informative) conclusions: # Snacky probably isn't compelled to be violent right now, but his new breakthrough may exacerbate his existing megalomania, and even under normal circumstances he seems basically fine with killing people and getting all the power he can, so he will probably be even more insufferable from here on. # A similar analysis holds for Dr. Vapnoople; if he has his spark restored, it will probably be like what happened with Bunstable, who seemed to transition from "doddering fool" to his sparky/Jäger state without much ado. But Vapnoople was also a terrifyingly evil spark in the first place, so he could basically just go crazy and it would still make sense? Anyway, I'm thinking about what here is appropriate to write up in the wiki proper, but I've had a lot to think about. Quantheory (talk) 05:40, April 21, 2019 (UTC) : Whew! Thanks for all that -- interesting reading. ➤ : Apart from Colette, have we actually seen anyone's first breakthrough? As opposed to seeing the devices they built? For all we know, everyone gets the weird eyes and the glow and all that, at the moment of their breakthrough. Admittedly, you'd expect Gil or Tarvek to have said "huh? Agatha's having a breakthrough, but she's already a spark" in the Castle, if that's the case, but they were both very sick at the time and not up to saying much of anything. ➤ : We are told that sparks' breakthrough creation is generally violent, but we have never actually seen an example. Agatha's was nonviolent; Gil's was nonviolent; Colette didn't exactly have one, instead taking over Simon's. And we should bear in mind that most of the bit-player sparks we've seen didn't stop being violent after their breakthroughs! Maybe instead of being violent, sparks breaking through are just more extreme versions of their own personality or character. It's not hard to imagine Tweedle's breakthrough invention being violent, but you'd expect Seffie's to assert power in a more subtle fashion. ➤ : There do seem to be a lot of hints that the spark is a gift from higher dimensions, with omniscience as a different, but sometimes connected, such gift. If so, the next question is this: Are these "gifts" inherent in the physics of higher dimensions, or are they intentional gifts from higher-dimensional sentient beings? ➤ : I wouldn't classify Snacky zapping the redshirts as a breakthrough invention; it's just a use of brute power. On a related subject, why did his project require the services of most of the Society's sparks? The actual arrival of Red seems to have depended on pre-spark-infestation magic properties of that piece of land, with only minor uses of technology, mainly a power plant. And the connection to Snacky seems to have used Other technology. All those other sparks did was shoot probes into Red. ➤ : You mention the quasi-extra-dimensional nature of the Castle. One wonders why it can't solve this little time-freeze problem itself, rather than waiting for Agatha, who is (most of the time) not so equipped. Bkharvey (talk) 06:18, April 21, 2019 (UTC) : Re: Gil's breakthrough. It probably happened due to he and Tarvek being caught in the Castle Wulfenbach records, and Tarvek being kicked off the airship. Gil desperately wanted a new friend, so he literally made one. And it's semi-canonical, but the print novels note in passing that this act caused quite bit of collateral damage onboard, which Klaus passed off as some random lab experiment. --Geoduck42 (talk) 16:11, April 21, 2019 (UTC) : First off, thank you for a bunch of interesting and well-articulated thoughts and theories! It seems like a spark’s breakthrough is a moment of clarity that allows them to perceive deeper meaning and that they can manipulate physics/chemistry/biology with that new understanding. It is not surprising that such a fundamental change in understanding would be traumatic and potentially drive one insane.➤ : Sparks are known to get carried away in their enthusiasm and neglect the consequences of their actions. Again, not surprising that they would get much too delighted with their first inventions and hurt themselves as well as others. (Once a young pyromaniac, I count myself lucky that I still have most of my original parts). I do not recall that the Girl Genius universe breakthroughs were considered violent, only traumatic which would imply more mental stress than physical.➤ : With the excellent discussion above, it seems possible that the second breakthroughs are similar to the first breakthrough. However, instead of increased perception of the laws of three-dimensional reality, the proto-god gains increased perception of additional dimensions and how to manipulate them. The Other’s brain-melder-matic is just the conduit, the source of the increased perception in this case is Big Red.➤ : Tarvek was not connected to Big Red’s brain, just to his digestive system (given everything I know about interdimensional beings). His insanity may stem from more than being eaten, but so far, the saliva is just saliva. That having been said, the PCM’s linkage of Tarvek to Higgs was meant as a protective measure, so maybe Higgs’ “bulk” is what prevented Tarvek from being pulled fully into the extradimensional glottis. In either case, it would not seem likely that he would have gained the mental insight to get to the second level. Hard to say about Collette. She did float and burn things up, but her father floated as well without an apparent second breakthrough and she was hooked up to the Parisian power grid at the time. Destroying Beausoliel was a natural outcome of the events up to that point.➤ : The Castle is an artificial consciousness and thus it is not surprising that it perceives things differently. A poor analogy might be that its clock speed may have been altered, but it is still running. Agatha’s dingbots are created with the spark to the marvel of others. Agatha’s family created the Castle, so it is possible that it does have the spark. However, we have not seen it act like a spark (as far as we know), so the concept of breaking through may not be appropriate.➤ : The Snack’s second breakthrough is clearly stated as such. His, heh, shocking use of his new abilities is not surprising given countless examples of humans abusing power. One is tempted to read a bunch into his change in appearance, are the rectangles in his halo miniature doors? Clearly, rampant speculation is needed. 9thGeneral (talk) 19:06, April 21, 2019 (UTC) Off topic, I would bet a beverage of one’s choosing that the perfessers thought of the line “then, then, little fellow” several months ago, chuckled maniacally, and have been setting it up ever since. Definitely one of my personal favorites so far.9thGeneral (talk) 19:06, April 21, 2019 (UTC)